Curse

Wakka · Jan 16, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I do have to agree here lol

just because Splinter + Ancestors are on ever rit bar out there doesn't make them non-versatile. It would be saying Ranger's aren't versitile due to Savage/Dshot on every bar.

PyrAnkh · Jan 21, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I would go with rits for pve. They can do everthing from splinter barrage nuking, to channeling/resto hybrid builds, pure healing builds, defensive or offensive spirit spamming (although i doubt that is very usefull), minion master, or spirits strenght war/sin/derv/para.

Rangers for pvp though.

Tyla · Jan 21, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Rangers, i said it!

Melody Cross · Jan 21, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

On the surface, I'd have to say its a two way draw.

Ranger Expertise makes them the most versatile class to rely on their weapon. warrior, assasin and paragon; any "skills" become cheap enough for the class to use effectively, and effective cross professions create a class capable of doing some surprising things. Touchers, thumpers, Heal as One HB rangers. Dagger mastery rangers can even keep up with their assassin counterparts.

The only other class that can boast that would be an ele for their energy pool.

On the caster side of things, ele does rein supreme. No spell is denied them, and energy managers allow the class to spam skills other classes would be exhausted by in three casts. Heal Party spamming with (for them) cheap run buffs make eles the best current choice for running flags in GvG. they can spike, they can add to pressure. They can even add support buffs with wards and keep on trucking.

The break even point would be the two classes armor. Rangers have more. This gives them the ability to survive longer, to self manage longer, than their caster counterpart (unless the ele is geared toward a pure self-survivor build which, tbh, is not very useful). When you add interrupts and spammable (now unblockable) snares like Crip Shot, and poison preparations to cover all the conditions the class can crank out (as opposed to an eles hexe conditionss or fire degen, but its hard to have both) the ranger tips the scales back in its favor. last but least, we've got that dirty four letter word for which monk have learneed to hate rangers with such conviction: daze. Its a cureall solution for any caster thats causing trouble, and with double conditions stakcing to protect dazed, its "the" reason why RC is such a popular elite in PvP. Sure eles can interupts. spec some points into mesmer and there you go pretty much. But rangers have this power, deadly ability, naturally. And they can pin down to increase team pressure from the melee characters and AoE, spread degen amoung multiple targets, forcing monks to rely on calls from their team, forcing teams to be vocal about whats on them, forcing players to up their game.

Good rangers in the midline can bring havoc to the other side. They can kill the flag runner. Alone. Assist the spike, assist with pressure. They can even run flags when called to, split into the other teams base. PvE side they can shut down bosses to make killing easy, create serious AoE damage with Splinter Barrage. Eles? Crank out spells. Depending on the spells, depending on the fact that the ranger is busy elsewhere, that can be a good thing.

Ranger was always built to be the jack-of-all-trades class, and the ranger has managed to keep this label from GWP through GW:EN.

So for pure staying power when it comes to cranking out any skill or spell, ele wins. But when you want a truly versatile, hard to kill/catch/survive when you face this toon alone, ranger takes the lead.

The question boils down to this really: which do you prefer playing? Do you want a character that can use "everything"? Or do you want a character that can use...almost everything...well.

EDIT:

I'd say Rits are 3rd in the lineup. A distant 3rd. Mostly this is due to their builds and Spawning power. yeah, they can heal or AoE. Sure they have spike. But they lack that "other" quality that the other two professions bring to the game: disruption. There's no shutdown in the class worth mentioning (well, okay. We'll mention it: Warmongers. But its so reliant on a good frontline that it becomes less. Shutting down either character breaks the rits disruption, and its easier to shutdown one of two characters than it is to shutdown a single skill.) and they haven't the juice an ele has to borrow from other classes to get it reliably and SP doesn't give them the means to get it. They don't have the ability to solo that rangers or eles do (I know this is a PvE forum, but when speaking about versatility, the best place to see it is in a GvG setting).

they're locked into being rits, a class that "fills holes" in a team build. Thats not a bad thing. Monks are locked into being monks, warriors are locked into being warriors.

GGs

Dark Saga · Jan 22, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

From my definition of versitle it'd be ranger, pve or pvp. While an ele can run a multitude of builds and a necro got several strong builds for a multitude of situations the ranger is the most versitle within it's 8 skills (or at least can be if you pick good ones).

Melody pretty much nails it even tough it's focused mostly on pvp and I'd guess the OP is more into pve. The ranger can add damage, disruption and survival in the same bar. Granted it will often be bested in any one area by other classes it is still very versitle.

Marverick · Jan 22, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

It really depends on the definition of "versatile."

If what you mean is "the primary profession offers the ability to fill different party roles," I would probably go with Ritualist or Paragon. Both have a lot of defensive capabilities, both in terms of "protection" and "healing;" both have DPS capabilities - Paragons with Spear Mastery skills, Ritualists with Spirit Strength; and while the Ritualist has the offensive edge with Channeling magic that mimics "nuking," the Paragon certainly wins defensively with "They're on Fire!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"

On the other hand, if you define "versatile" as "capable of running skills from any secondary profession and 'mimicking' any class," the Elementalist and the Necromancer win hands-down. Both of these professions have a primary attribute that provides excellent energy management, and since the only way to be as good at a secondary profession (without access to runes and that profession's primary attribute) is to work harder and cast more, energy management is what really allows a character to function well in such a situation. I may be biased (because of my main character choice), but I believe the Elementalist has an edge here: the Necromancer's energy management requires things to die rather frequently, and while things most often do in PvE, I prefer the Elementalist's "guaranteed" energy pool and the superb energy recovery of Ether Prodigy.

(On a side note, an Elementalist can tank rather well if equipped with the right Earth Magic enchantments, so it could also perform better as a "frontline" character than a Necromancer

)

As far as your new character goes, I'd advise you pick up something you haven't played in terms of the party role. If you've played your Assassin as the "tank" - lead the heroes/henchies into melee, provide constant damage, etc. - consider a caster instead, or perhaps a ranger, to see the battlefield from a different perspective. Unless you've got all skills unlocked (which I doubt), I'd also recommend you pick both a primary and a secondary profession that are new to you. That way, you will be able to unlock more skills as you go through the game, which will benefit your heroes even if you end up dissatisfied with the new character and relegate it to storage

N/Rt is a better healer than Rt/x and Mo/x.

N/Mo can be almost as good at protection prayers.

N/Me with [skill=text]Psychic Distraction[/skill] owns for interrupting purposes except maybe BHA.

N/Me with SS owns for AoE damage

N/whatever with curses owns for melee shutdown

N/whatever MM owns for DPS

what else is there?

Rangers are the least versatile in PvP....
Apply Poison
pick your elite (Crippling Shot, Burning Arrow, Magebane Shot)
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Natural Stride
Troll Unguent
Mending Touch
Resurrection Signet

yea... really versatile

On a side note, Energy Storage =/= Energy Management!!!!

If you're running Mind Blast, fine. But that takes away your elite and a good deal of attribute points.

Melody Cross · Jan 22, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

N/Rt is a better healer than Rt/x and Mo/x.

N/Mo can be almost as good at protection prayers.

N/Me with [skill=text]Psychic Distraction[/skill] owns for interrupting purposes except maybe BHA.

N/Me with SS owns for AoE damage

N/whatever with curses owns for melee shutdown

N/whatever MM owns for DPS

what else is there?

Theres the fact that they rely on things dying regularly to crank spells out. Necros can do some surprising things, but i wouldn't lump them in the same category as eles or rangers when it comes to versatility.

The first best PvE counter to this statement that i can think of will be what is now being called Sabway. The hero build focuses exclusively on necros to supply pressure from an SS, frontline and increased pressure from an MM with a WoR Necro/Rit to supplement healing from the hench monk. its not a bad build. But look at it again. The build ends up being like every other necro build in PvP; it relies on some battery to operate, namely the MM, to crank out minions on a regular basis. Corpse denial weakens the build considerably. No MM kills it.

While necros can do different things, they are reliant on other necros acting as a team to do so. Without those other necros (namely an MM for PvE purposes) they tend to break apart. Necros are the great specializers; what they spec for (and specifically doing that) they can do well. But they've no staying power without their battery, and the builds are rigid. What they do they do very well, but they can't do anything else. If they're built to pressure, thats it. if they're built to crank minions, thats it. If they're built to heal...you get the idea. Eles and rangers can pressure, spike, and split in the same build. In this regard, necros are fragile.

And the reason why is their energy manager. Its reliant on death; reliant on an 8-man.

Ele and ranger energy management, on the other hand, rely completely on themselves. Ranger expertise lowers skillcost. If its not a spell shout or chant, its cheap. Ele energy managers are self targeting and unsurpassed in terms of EoT gains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Rangers are the least versatile in PvP....
Apply Poison
pick your elite (Crippling Shot, Burning Arrow, Magebane Shot)
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Natural Stride
Troll Unguent
Mending Touch
Resurrection Signet

yea... really versatile

This speaks to the fickleness of a typical GW player's memory, not to the versatility of the class in itself. Because every top tier guild in obs mode is running Cripshot right now does not mean that the only thing rangers are capable of running is Cripshot.

This is not to pick on you maverick. Many--most--players are quick to forget the other builds the class can run well if it is not shoved under their nose every day. Because players don't see it in the meta right now, they don't think about it. Therefor, it does not exist to them.

But on the subject of "the standard", lets look at your typical build that you gave us again. Versatility does not always equal so much "I can run all skills" as it does "I can do a lot with my 8 skills". And that really is a pretty typical ranger bar.

just by changing the elite, we radically change the functionality of that ranger. Crip Shot: I can supply severe team pressure over time. BHA: I can shut down bosses. Burning Arrow: I can solo in their base. Magebane: I will tear your solo monk apart in 4v4s. If we take Mend Touch out, put Splinter Weapon in and Barrage can AoE. Prep Shot builds will chew up casters with high damage.

"But," you may say, "thats where it ends." It doesn't. Rangers don't end just being rangers. Thumpers and (don't flame me for this) Touchers can frontline. R/P can actually supplement a paragon midline if you use a good IAS and go heavy on adren skills, and many paragon motivation skills are inexpensive enough that expertise not working on them can be ignored(they can, in fact, crank them out almost as well as the primary can) which brings us back to the whole "Jack of All Trades; Master of None" mentality on which Rangers were designed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick

On a side note, Energy Storage =/= Energy Management!!!!

If you're running Mind Blast, fine. But that takes away your elite and a good deal of attribute points.

When talking energy managers in an ele lineup, Mind Blast is usually the last one I discuss. EProd is top of the list. its the EoT king of all skills and even Soul Reaping will have a tough time keeping up over the long haul. Only found in energy storage and another exhaustion causing skill, EProd is built for eles as much as eles were built for it. All those excessively expensive--excessively powerful--25e skills in this game were made for two professions, and both use them well: 25e skill=ranger. 25e spell=ele.

Ele attune is usually second on the list. it still takes your elite slot and more rigidly forces you into a pure ele build, but what an ele build it can be! Water snare spamming is a breeze on this bar, and the pressure/AoE spike potential is hard to compare.

Mind blast is more fun. And when running Fire Attune while spamming your elite on low energy wars, it can keep up respectably. But if you want to talk about necro healers, the best HoT in the game (anywhere with LoD perma-killed and it still never really came close) is an EProd emo spamming Heal Party. They were the only class that could use Shield of Regen reliably. SS is a great pressure skill. SH builds crank that out too. A full Curse build dedicated to the job can shut down melee a little bit better than a water magic spell and a ward I think needs no mention. The list can go on for eles but will become less effective the harder you look. Rangers go even further.

GGs

Wakka · Jan 22, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

*claps at the above post*

Nice one

RotteN · Jan 22, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

hard to add anything to Melody's post i guess ^^

Ranger > * (ok, so i don't like ele's

)

Epinephrine · Jan 22, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Ranger. Hands down, most versatile in game, but not for casting. You can play with any weapon pretty much, and do anything from stance tanking to hit and run, damage dealing, trapping, condition spreading, interrupting...

For casters it's a bit tougher; I'd say that a caster with good energy management is nice; necromancers and elementalists aren't bad for versatility. Elementalists have snaring (water), defensive (earth), conditions (air - blind, weakness and cracked armour) and vary from AoE to single target damage depending; their energy storage/management is nice, and can allow them to pump heal party or whatever is needed. Necromancers benefit from free energy management (especially in PvE) and have nice attribute lines as well, but can use the energy from soul reaping to act as healers, warders, or whatever you need on top of their necromancer abilities.

Ideally mesmers are the perfect flexibility caster, since they are meant to have good energy management, a primary ability that benefits all casters, and lots of meta-magic (Echo, Arcane Echo, Mantra of Recovery...) but in practice their energy management is gimped from others having borrowed it so much. Signet of Illusions offers the mesmer a way to be more flexible than any other caster though, and is worth considering if you really like the idea. It slows things down, as you need to constantly use the signet, but no other caster can crank out max-rank spells (14 with minor, 16 with superior rune) in ANY attribute.

Melody Cross · Jan 22, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Ideally mesmers are the perfect flexibility caster, since they are meant to have good energy management, a primary ability that benefits all casters, and lots of meta-magic (Echo, Arcane Echo, Mantra of Recovery...) but in practice their energy management is gimped from others having borrowed it so much. Signet of Illusions offers the mesmer a way to be more flexible than any other caster though, and is worth considering if you really like the idea. It slows things down, as you need to constantly use the signet, but no other caster can crank out max-rank spells (14 with minor, 16 with superior rune) in ANY attribute.

I agree that Sig of Illusions helped put mesmers back on the PvE map (after the buff that is).

But I'm not sure I'd say they're versatile in the way eles and rangers (or even rits, the distant thrid) are. This is mostly due to class perception, to be sure. When i see a mesmer in a group, pve or pvp, I want them to bring mostly shutdown stuff because *deep breath* they just so good at it!

And I also agree about the energy management. The best thing Anet could have done for the class would have been to move them from Inspiration to Fast Casting and just say it: we don't want monks using this! they're a pain in the behind when they do! But they didn't, and by now they won't. Its kinda sad really, but the class has some great other elites that more than make up for it in pvp and (ugh; I hate thinking a good mesmer would sink to such a level or be asked to) theres always ursan for pve.

GGs

Magikarp · Jan 22, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor
Splinter
Ancestor

right, so versatile!!!

have you ever played a ritualist???

in order of most versitile:

rit
ranger
warrior
necro
ele

Drake Aran · Jan 23, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Paragon is the most versatile class in PvE, imho, followed by short distance by ranger. THEN come necromacers.

Quru · Jan 23, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Necromancer.

Dervishes are least versatile. In PvE it's just this:

Cast avatar -> cast Eternal Aura
Run to the fight, put enchantments up
Spam attack skills
OMFG MY HP IS LOW -> Mystic regeneration
Repeat

Pyro maniac · Jan 23, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quru

Necromancer.

Dervishes are least versatile. In PvE it's just this:

Cast avatar -> cast Eternal Aura
Run to the fight, put enchantments up
Spam attack skills
OMFG MY HP IS LOW -> Mystic regeneration
Repeat

it's true they have less versatility

Paragon's are actually cool to:
[skill]Mirror of Disenchantment[/skill] and [skill]Power Return[/skill] are good on them ^^

LightningHell · Jan 24, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Define "versatile".

XiaoTheBlade · Jan 24, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

1. Paragon
2. Rit
3. Ranger

bosstweed · Jan 24, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Necros and Rangers, (and sure, why not, Elementalists), in my opinion, are versitile when combining them with secondary professions.

Ritualists, on the other hand, are versitile in their own skill lines, rarely needing any representation of a secondary on their bar.

That's my take.

Melody Cross · Jan 25, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Define "versatile".

From Websters:
Versatile:1.capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields or endeavor, etc: a versatile writer. 2. having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool (3&4 are NA to discussion) 5. variable or changeable as in feeling, purpose, or policy; versatile moods

--Syn. 1. adaptable, all-around 2. handy

So for our purposes, I would quantify a versatile character class in GW as capable of doing a lot of different things well. The qualifier "well" is the kicker. While a monk can run a Warrior build with monk skills same as my Whammo, the W/Mo will do a better job of being a front line character.

So its not just a question of can it do these things, because any character in the game can use any skill in GW, as long as they are unlocked and paid for/acquired. Can they do them in such a resounding way that any good, experienced players in a group or forum--not simply themselves and their closest friends--would agree that they did their intended task (or tasks; I would include the ability to multi-task in the same build as a high requirement for defining versatile characters) effectively enough to be a boon to the group and not a space taker at best; hindrance at worst?

I wish the OP would sound off on his qualifiers, but until she/he replies, we won't know what they consider versatile. Either way, I can't really think of anything else to add to this discussion.

GGs

arsie · Jan 25, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

I see it as the potential number of roles a profession can play in the general game, gimmick builds aside. However, just because a profession can play fewer roles, doesn't make them any less efficient at them.

I'd vote Warrior.

Sword/Axe damage dealer, Hammer KBer, Shout Buffer, Warrior-based Tank, Obsidian Tank, Condition Spreader.

Next up is probably Rangers and Elementalists. I can think of at least 4 roles they take.

The others have 3 or 2 general roles.